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有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

在 04-10-2016, 11:11 下午 由 Hortford 發表.第 203 篇回覆.
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  •  01-01-2011, 12:02 下午 358298 in reply to 357718

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    看到這篇討論,讓鮮少回文的我也想來說幾句話,

    打從開始看nba,我就是pippen的忠實球迷,

    雖然看球的時間也才10幾年,

    當時大家的焦點都在jordan身上,但我卻是被pippen的身手吸引住。

    但是要說誰沒有誰就不能拿冠軍,我想這是一個相對的問題,

    回頭看當時的公牛隊,雖然綠葉很多,

    但我想上從主管教練,到所有的球員,都是缺一不可的,

    至於欄主擔心pippen被遺忘,我是覺得有點多慮,

    我想,要是提到jordan一定會聯想到pippen,

    同樣的提到pippen也會讓我們想到jordan,

    至少對我來說,他們兩個是密不可分的。

    另外說20強也不過分,我想每個人心裡面都有個標準,

    每個人心裡面的排名順序一定是不一樣的,我們何不尊重每個人的觀點,做理性的討論。

    我想每位被選進50大球星的球員都有他的獨特性, 我想pippen的全能身手,是吸引我們這些粉絲的主要原因。

    雖然數據有一定的參考價值,但我想那並不能完全的作為評價一個球員的所有依據,

    對我來說,pippen在公牛隊就像是一個廉價勞工,但這也只能怪他自己,和當時的環境,

    他也算是對公牛鞠躬盡瘁了,到了後期因為背傷,身手也和全盛時期不能相比了,

    如果有真正的去了解他的奮鬥故事,我想你也會被他感動,想想他從一個不是ncaa一級學校,想要參加選秀,

    他的隊友和教練都認為他瘋了,進入nba後,經過交易,有幸和jordan同隊,卻一直活在jordan的陰影下,

    不過他卻是甘之如飴,我想這就是魚幫水,水幫魚。另外他領到薪水還幫他的家族蓋了一整排房子.....

    當然他的故事也有負面的,例如因為不滿最後一擊沒交給他,負氣離場;有人批評他EQ低,有人說他沒有領袖氣質,

    pippen一直以來都算是個爭議人物,但是對我來說,我一點都不在乎,因為我就是欣賞他的身手。

    以上是我個人對PIPPEN的觀點, 

    現在的網路充斥著暴力和不負責任的語言,我們為甚麼不能多帶點理性與和協的氣份來做討論,

    雖然網路上不知道彼此的身分,但是為自己的言行負責,也尊重一下發言的人,讓這個討論區可以更理性,

    讓更多人喜歡這裡,不是很好嗎?!新的一黏希望大家都可以在這邊更熱絡的討論NBA唷!!

    祝大家新年快樂!!

    如果上面的言談有冒犯或說錯的請大家包含唷!! 

  •  01-01-2011, 12:02 下午 358299 in reply to 358293

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    有時候,冠軍戒指對於球員的生涯評價卻有決定性的影響。

    Artis Gilmore,生涯籃板數第五, 火鍋第四,投籃命中率第一。幾乎年年全勤,是當年的頭號鐵人。

    只因為少了一顆冠軍戒指(媒體大爺們似乎看不上ABA冠軍),至今仍進不了名人堂。今年似乎是他最後的挑戰機會。 

     

  •  01-01-2011, 12:51 下午 358305 in reply to 358299

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    cowbay:

    有時候,冠軍戒指對於球員的生涯評價卻有決定性的影響。

    Artis Gilmore,生涯籃板數第五, 火鍋第四,投籃命中率第一。幾乎年年全勤,是當年的頭號鐵人。

    只因為少了一顆冠軍戒指(媒體大爺們似乎看不上ABA冠軍),至今仍進不了名人堂。今年似乎是他最後的挑戰機會。 

     

     

    我並不認為Artis Gilmore到現在還沒有進名人堂全然是他沒有NBA戒指的關係。

     

    我很久以前寫過Artis Gilmore的文章,就我的印象他沒入名人堂跟他與媒體關係不夠熱絡有些關係,

    不要以為這不可能,Cowbay網友不也認為Bill Walton會進名人堂跟他的媒體緣有不少幫助?

     

    其實我認為Artis Gilmore比較吃虧的地方在於他的黃金表現是在ABA階段,

    當然他老兄來到NBA後表現還是很優異,不過相較起來是遜色了不少,

    Artis Gilmore 在ABA時代平均22.3分,17.1個籃板,3次助攻,3.4次火鍋及0.7次抄截,

    到了NBA時代他的表現是平均是17.1分,10.1個籃板,2.0次助攻,1.9個火鍋及0.5次抄截, 

    除了投籃命中率明顯提升之外(五成九九對上五成五七),我想那個差異的確是存在的。
     

    當然數據跟球隊間的化合與定位關係很大,但要說NBA與ABA競爭強度有差並不易辯駁, 

    Artis Gilmore在NBA待了十餘年,除了數度在投籃命中率榜上封王之外,

    這位外號叫做A-Train的正格中鋒獲得聯盟獎項的次數並不多,事實是非常少,

    因為當代Kareem Abdul-jabbar與Moses Malone的關係,他無法入選聯盟一二隊,

    我印象中Artis Gilmore在NBA少數獲得的榮耀是入選過一次的防守第二隊陣容。 

     

    Artis Gilmore在NBA的成績是平均17.1分及10.1個籃板,那是很不錯的表現,

    可惜他帶領的芝加哥公牛隊從來沒有超過單季45勝的表現,當然球隊陣容不佳,

    不過身為主將的Artis Gilmore多少難辭其咎,恐怕在球隊影響力的佐證上是吃了虧,

    至於他到了聖安東尼奧馬刺對後球隊成績很了不少,不過那支球隊人才濟濟,

    除了他還有四度得分王George Gervin,一流的高效能小前鋒Mike Mitchell,

    還有一位曾經拿下NBA助攻王,目前球衣已經被馬刺退休的Johnny Moore。 

     

    這樣的職業生涯是非常夠格進名人堂,不過的確是不少讓人票投不下去的原因,

    我覺得沒有NBA的冠軍頂多是少了加分的項目,並不會是決定性的影響。 

  •  01-01-2011, 4:11 下午 358319 in reply to 358305

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    Artis Gilmore與媒體關係不佳,這點倒是沒爭疑,大部分相關報導都有提及一二。

    但我認為媒體關係也只能算是加分要素,否則如Dominique、McAdoo、Dantley也都曾與媒體關係不佳(Dominique和Dantley是任職球隊後才開始改善),名人堂資格的影響頂多是等個幾年。要像Gilmore這樣也未免太說不過去。

    除非名人堂委員有門戶之見,不認同ABA的成績。否則就算把他在ABA的成績打折算進去,他的生涯成績還是勝過許多名人堂成員。尤其那個精美的鐵人出賽記錄,唯有Parish能超越。

  •  01-01-2011, 5:38 下午 358320 in reply to 358275

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    JESSE319:

    你要自我感覺良好的話

    發在部落格-不然有本事就寫篇文章來市民開講

     

    你發在論壇就要接受別人的對你的文的質疑

     

    「20大也不過份」

    就是這一句

     .............................

    您對我而言 什麼都不是

    我也不需要聽您的指示去市民開講寫什麼

    所以我也不會再這個題目上對您做任何回應

    您若想繼續質疑空氣請自便 喜歡點進來看不爽也是您的自由

    Happy new year.

  •  01-01-2011, 6:26 下午 358322 in reply to 358320

    • PQw57 is not online. Last active: 08-04-2011, 10:43 下午 PQw57
    • Not Ranked
    • 加入於 10-05-2010
    • 籃球夏令營

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    Trojans12:
    JESSE319:

    你要自我感覺良好的話

    發在部落格-不然有本事就寫篇文章來市民開講

     

    你發在論壇就要接受別人的對你的文的質疑

     

    「20大也不過份」

    就是這一句

     .............................

    您對我而言 什麼都不是

    我也不需要聽您的指示去市民開講寫什麼

    所以我也不會再這個題目上對您做任何回應

    您若想繼續質疑空氣請自便 喜歡點進來看不爽也是您的自由

    Happy new year.

    如果其他人的看法跟質疑都不重要, 那你 "有點感嘆 消失的Pippen" 這篇到底是在幹麻?

    搞得好像別人沒有持反對立場的權利跟空間, 這種話講出來未免太過份了吧

    如果不想理他, 大不了就不要回, 沒必要說

    "您對我而言 什麼都不是"(什麼都不是幹麻還要跟他講?) 

    "我也不會對您做任何回應"(這不是回應了?)

    這種重話吧

    ---

    我想J大的意思是希望你能明白這裡是討論區

    是提供給大家討論用的

    不然你寫在部落格或者市民開講上不是更好嗎

  •  01-01-2011, 7:22 下午 358326 in reply to 358320

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    Trojans12:
    JESSE319:

    你要自我感覺良好的話

    發在部落格-不然有本事就寫篇文章來市民開講

     

    你發在論壇就要接受別人的對你的文的質疑

     

    「20大也不過份」

    就是這一句

     .............................

    您對我而言 什麼都不是

    我也不需要聽您的指示去市民開講寫什麼

    所以我也不會再這個題目上對您做任何回應

    您若想繼續質疑空氣請自便 喜歡點進來看不爽也是您的自由

    Happy new year.

    圓球是大家的

    你發文就要有被質疑的雅量

    不然就別來這討論

     


    這世代的經典

  •  01-01-2011, 7:27 下午 358327 in reply to 358292

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    your_airness:
    so patrick ewing wasn't even picked because of other great centers, how did an unselected player beat a 1st team player and took his team to the 1994 final?  because ewing was better than pippen in 1994 PERIOD, even 1994 was pip's best year

    so drexler got pushed to the 2nd team because of Jordan and Magic, that doesn't mean pippen was better than him either

    Your argument is still flawed, Bulls failed to beat Celtics/Pistons on many occasions in playoffs, so by applying your logic, Isiah Thomas/Larry Legend was better than Jordan, period.

    Drexler went to finals 3 times:

    26.4/7.8/6.2/1.8/0.2 - 1990 NBA finals, 5 games.

    24.8/7.8/5.3/1.3/1 - 1992 NBA finals, 6 games.

    21.5/9.5/6.8/1/0.3 - 1995 NBA finals, 4 games.

    Pippen went to finals 6 times, so I will just pick the first 3:

    20.8/9.4/6.6/2.4/1 - 1991 NBA finals, 5 games.

    20.8/8.3/7.7/1.5/0.7 - 1992 NBA finals, 6 games vs Drexler lead Blazers.

    21.2/9.2/7.7/2/1 - 1993 NBA finals, 6 games

     

    I don't see Drexler performed significantly better despite being undisputed No.1 for first two finals and as a number 2 for the 3rd finals.

    Drexler only beat Pippen in scoring, but Pippen made up the difference in rebounding, assist, steal and block.

     

    Pippen almost always had better averages in playoffs than regular season anyway, if there were any playoffs NBA team selection, Pippen would be there as always.

     

    So I don't see how statistically greater Drexler was over Pippen, in fact they were about the same standards.

    Either they were both great or they weren't by applying your logic.

    In my opinion they were both great.

  •  01-01-2011, 7:48 下午 358328 in reply to 358322

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    PQw57:

    如果其他人的看法跟質疑都不重要, 那你 "有點感嘆 消失的Pippen" 這篇到底是在幹麻?

    搞得好像別人沒有持反對立場的權利跟空間, 這種話講出來未免太過份了吧

    如果不想理他, 大不了就不要回, 沒必要說

    "您對我而言 什麼都不是"(什麼都不是幹麻還要跟他講?) 

    "我也不會對您做任何回應"(這不是回應了?)

    這種重話吧

    ---

    我想J大的意思是希望你能明白這裡是討論區

    是提供給大家討論用的

    不然你寫在部落格或者市民開講上不是更好嗎

    按照您的邏輯 是否與我看法不同的人在第一時間也不需要回?

    因為我早就說這是"個人看法"

    這跟您的說法不是自相矛盾嗎? 您這篇發言應該針對第一個質疑我的人 而不是我

    因為某人已經寫了"看不爽"三字 而不是我

     

    如同我說今天很冷 您說今天很熱 那請問還需要繼續質疑下去嗎?

    個人看法是一個能被質疑的東西嗎??

    質疑是拿來用在邏輯上 或是數據上 亦或是感覺上?

    我從未說過我認為Pippen是top20是因為數據上他是Top20 純粹就個人看過的比賽而言

    我看過的球星都在88年以後 古代人我只能從一些精采片段看到 並不能做出什麼判斷

     

    看法不同不就是各自表述就好? 各自表述看法 如果沒有改變 那是否該尊重他人發言?

    又我把我的看法相當完整的寫出來 請問那些屢次質疑我的人 是否曾經完整的寫出他們的看法

    質疑半天又不能表達自己在質疑什麼 是否很浪費時間?

     

    請問"我就是看XXX不爽"這種句子用在討論串理 合宜嗎?

  •  01-01-2011, 8:06 下午 358332 in reply to 358298

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    我認為red jazz用入選第一隊的方式來比較是一種方法

    我另外再提供一個數據:

    MVP Award Shares

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html

     用MVP Award Shares來看球員在當代的主宰力我認為是不錯的方式

    這數據在前20名夠客觀

    供大家參考參考

     


    這世代的經典

  •  01-02-2011, 12:07 上午 358347 in reply to 358327

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    Trojans12:

    Drexler went to finals 3 times:

    26.4/7.8/6.2/1.8/0.2 - 1990 NBA finals, 5 games.

    24.8/7.8/5.3/1.3/1 - 1992 NBA finals, 6 games.

    21.5/9.5/6.8/1/0.3 - 1995 NBA finals, 4 games.

    Pippen went to finals 6 times, so I will just pick the first 3:

    20.8/9.4/6.6/2.4/1 - 1991 NBA finals, 5 games.

    20.8/8.3/7.7/1.5/0.7 - 1992 NBA finals, 6 games vs Drexler lead Blazers.

    21.2/9.2/7.7/2/1 - 1993 NBA finals, 6 games

    I don't see Drexler performed significantly better despite being undisputed No.1 for first two finals and as a number 2 for the 3rd finals.

    Drexler only beat Pippen in scoring, but Pippen made up the difference in rebounding, assist, steal and block.  Confused

    it wouldn't be fair to say pip could "make up the difference in rebounding, assist, steal and block"

    when drexler as the No.1 guy had to carry the scoring for blazers

    you are under the impression that while drexler and MJ are better scorer, pippen is a more all around player

    that's not true, if drexler and MJ didn't have to carry the scoring load, they can put up just about the same stats on rebound/assist/steal/block as well

    but pippen can't score like drexler or MJ

    check MJ's 1989 stats, 32.5 points/8 rebs/8 asts/2.9 steals, besides being an MVP, scoring champ, and defensive player of the year in 1988, MJ proved he can be just as all around as oscar, magic, bird, or today's lebron james

    the most all around player on the bulls team is actually still Jordan, but he chose to focus on scoring and let pip do the rest

    one more thing i want to say is that:

    21.2/9.2/7.7/2/1 - 1993 NBA finals, 6 games (pip)

    21.5/9.5/6.8/1/0.3 - 1995 NBA finals, 4 games. (drexler)

    while this comparison is more fair because both were #2, you forgot about one thing - AGE

    pip was 27 in 93, drexler was 32 in 95, yet their stats are about the same

    so to you they are still equal?

    drexler in 95 was more similar to pippen in 99 (age 32 vs age 33)

    both joined the rockets, both played way less than a full season with their new team (drexler 35 games, pip 50 games)

    yet one helped his team win the final, the other helped his team to 1st round exit

    the truth is that unlike drexler, whose all around skill allowed him to smoothly switch teams and fit in new system

    pippen seemed to be only able to find success in the bulls triangle system, especially with MJ as the leader

    put him anywhere else he would be less successful, otherwise how do you explain those years in houston and portland ???

    hope you don't use reasons like "he got old" or "dream and barkley weren't good enough/right fit for pip"

  •  01-02-2011, 1:22 上午 358351 in reply to 358347

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    每次看到JESSE319的發言就覺得很好笑 哈哈哈

    別看覺得皮朋可以進20大你也要生氣

    實在搞不懂你們欸

    有不同意見就提出來討論就好了還要在那邊腦羞不知道在腦羞什麼實在有夠蠢的

    他覺得皮朋能進20大還要經過你們同意嗎?

    對啦這裡是論壇,大家可以說自己的意見

    那他說自己的意見你們是在嗆屁?

    還說什麼就是看這個不爽看那個不爽、自慰什麼的都出來了

    那以後每個版大家都來亂嗆然後說我有發言的權利就好了

    版主的口氣也不是很差

    一堆人在這邊叫囂不知道在叫三小

    尤其是那個JESSE319,每次看他的回文就覺得很好笑

    尤其到最後都會見笑登生氣

    沒有容忍別人意見的雅量就不要發言

    但要發言前也想想自己有沒有必要這樣講話吧


    小三
  •  01-02-2011, 5:30 上午 358355 in reply to 358347

    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    your_airness:
    Trojans12:

    Drexler went to finals 3 times:

    26.4/7.8/6.2/1.8/0.2 - 1990 NBA finals, 5 games.

    24.8/7.8/5.3/1.3/1 - 1992 NBA finals, 6 games.

    21.5/9.5/6.8/1/0.3 - 1995 NBA finals, 4 games.

    Pippen went to finals 6 times, so I will just pick the first 3:

    20.8/9.4/6.6/2.4/1 - 1991 NBA finals, 5 games.

    20.8/8.3/7.7/1.5/0.7 - 1992 NBA finals, 6 games vs Drexler lead Blazers.

    21.2/9.2/7.7/2/1 - 1993 NBA finals, 6 games

    I don't see Drexler performed significantly better despite being undisputed No.1 for first two finals and as a number 2 for the 3rd finals.

    Drexler only beat Pippen in scoring, but Pippen made up the difference in rebounding, assist, steal and block.  Confused

    it wouldn't be fair to say pip could "make up the difference in rebounding, assist, steal and block"

    when drexler as the No.1 guy had to carry the scoring for blazers

    you are under the impression that while drexler and MJ are better scorer, pippen is a more all around player

    that's not true, if drexler and MJ didn't have to carry the scoring load, they can put up just about the same stats on rebound/assist/steal/block as well

    but pippen can't score like drexler or MJ

    check MJ's 1989 stats, 32.5 points/8 rebs/8 asts/2.9 steals, besides being an MVP, scoring champ, and defensive player of the year in 1988, MJ proved he can be just as all around as oscar, magic, bird, or today's lebron james

    the most all around player on the bulls team is actually still Jordan, but he chose to focus on scoring and let pip do the rest

    one more thing i want to say is that:

    21.2/9.2/7.7/2/1 - 1993 NBA finals, 6 games (pip)

    21.5/9.5/6.8/1/0.3 - 1995 NBA finals, 4 games. (drexler)

    while this comparison is more fair because both were #2, you forgot about one thing - AGE

    pip was 27 in 93, drexler was 32 in 95, yet their stats are about the same

    so to you they are still equal?

    drexler in 95 was more similar to pippen in 99 (age 32 vs age 33)

    both joined the rockets, both played way less than a full season with their new team (drexler 35 games, pip 50 games)

    yet one helped his team win the final, the other helped his team to 1st round exit

    the truth is that unlike drexler, whose all around skill allowed him to smoothly switch teams and fit in new system

    pippen seemed to be only able to find success in the bulls triangle system, especially with MJ as the leader

    put him anywhere else he would be less successful, otherwise how do you explain those years in houston and portland ???

    hope you don't use reasons like "he got old" or "dream and barkley weren't good enough/right fit for pip"

    You are dodging the bullet again by mentioning Jordan, this thread was never about Jordan nor comparison with Jordan nor even a thread about comparison. You brought up the comparison with Drexler, so please stick to your Drexler, not Jordan.

    You also said regular season is meaningless, so I am using Finals stats. Now you trying to go astray by mentioning MVP and all that regular season stuff.

    Contribution from both players are equally compariable, even in the same Finals.

    If Kobe's stats at 32 is compariable to his season at 27, I see no reason why they are not compariable.

    32 is still regarded as in the peak for most of the greats.

    Also you said hope you don't use reasons like "he got old"

    Did you not use the same reason to defend Drexler?

    Your argument is full of contridictions and purposely missing your own argument, hence I will not reply any further as this is a waste of time.

  •  01-02-2011, 8:52 上午 358357 in reply to 358351

    • GTO_Andy is not online. Last active: 2021-11-17, 11:05 上午 GTO_Andy
    • Top 25 Contributor
      男
    • 加入於 07-13-2006
    • California
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    Re: 有點感嘆 消失的Pippen

    很抱歉最近放假偷懶讓這篇火燒過頭了.
    請各位平心靜氣的討論, 也請不要模糊討論焦點
    這篇有很高的討論價值, 所以不鎖版

     

    然而, 率先自我坦白是來筆戰的兩位
    我必須要禁止兩週

    bear99, JESSE319, 蓄意挑釁其他市民(累犯), 禁止兩週

    以上

     

     

  •  01-02-2011, 8:36 下午 358436 in reply to 358298

    NR

     

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