「某球員的能力值多少身價」和「某球隊該花多少錢簽下該球員」基本上是兩個不同層次的問題。球員的能力不是單純數據就能衡量的，擬定合約也不是只需要單純考量球員的能力、身價。

另外，球隊管理階層採取的所有行動都是（或說都該是...）為了解決球隊的問題，而球迷的觀點顯然會有所不同。

有些板友努力想把這些差異釐清，但有些板友拼命在把這些差異搞混，阿嘶～

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Basketball is not math. Basketball is chemistry. Basketball is physics. Basketball may even be psychology. But basketball is not math. -- Kathy Goodman

tare88:

solongjimmy:

其實，我並不覺得爵士以這個價位留下Hayward有任何問題，尤其考慮到鹽湖城對大牌球員的吸引力不大，爵士也只能自己培養，但是Hayward的缺點還是很明顯的，不是換個教練就會變成AK或Pete。

Hayward是否真的能換個教練就翻身，我覺得機會是有的，但是上限並不高，他在防守端永遠不可能成為AK，進攻端也不可能成為Pete，而且是差很多的距離。 

我想沒有人期待Hayward有AK or Pete的表現，包括任何爵士隊的忠實球迷，那是太苛求了。

Hayward正處於一個爵士明星青黃不接的時期，隊上Exum/Favors甚至Kanters都有著比Hayward更好的天花板，但這票人的潛力還沒轉換成實力。現階段Hayward就算是爵士隊未來拼圖中最成熟的球員，他的態度也一直沒有問題，多個幾百萬留他4年非常划算。

前面有人拿AK做比較，他也是在爵士兩老退休後青黃不接的時期，撐住爵士隊到下一個all star Deron成熟。當然同年齡的AK比Hayward厲害太多，不過這麼利害的球員好像整個NBA也沒有太多就是了。

在今年球隊的這種改變下，Hayward一定會有所突破，對球隊也一定有正向幫助。是不是明星球員的料也許還未定(雖然個人也很看好，但看看別欄話還是不要講太死)，但絕對值頂約。

我沒想過要拿AK和Pete來比，是另一位提的，很顯然，頂薪簽Hayward跟頂薪(假設)簽AK或Pete不是同一回事，看起來你應該也同意。

我也說了我不覺得頂薪留Hayward有問題，其實講頂薪太含糊了，還是要看金額，因為他的這份約一年才15M多，以爵士的立場來說，我覺得是可以的，20M就不行了。

 

solongjimmy:

我沒想過要拿AK和Pete來比，是另一位提的，很顯然，頂薪簽Hayward跟頂薪(假設)簽AK或Pete不是同一回事，看起來你應該也同意。

我也說了我不覺得頂薪留Hayward有問題，其實講頂薪太含糊了，還是要看金額，因為他的這份約一年才15M多，以爵士的立場來說，我覺得是可以的，20M就不行了。

我不想去鑽牛角尖，但你得明白我會舉 pete 跟 ak 的原因在哪

pete 是爵士官方近來以 gordon 為何值得頂薪的比較前提，為了安撫球迷尤其季票持有者，舉他為鹽湖城歷史第二位達 15/5/5 數據門檻為例，這正是官方的口號，也許台灣球迷 or fantasy 對這點不重視，但這畢竟還是官方說法

實際上有沒有辦法做到 pete 的貢獻或者能不能比上 pete 很重要嗎，我想這邊的重點是這兩人同樣繳出 15/5/5 這數據門檻，命中率的問題跟這個門檻相比，到底哪個重要，本季又有多少球員達此門檻。對我而言，相較於命中率的問題，我想這門檻應該更重要才是

ak 我相比的是情形，兩位在新人換約時正經歷類似狀況，有 star 級 pg 加盟，兩人薪水也差不多，球迷反應幾乎一樣 55 波。我曉得不同的地方很多，包括 ak 屬於「先證明自己有那個價」而 hayward 是「未來可能會符合這個價」，表現上不用多提，大家都知道差別。相反的，我們也知道 ak 在心態上的問題，他是否勝任球隊的一哥角色，我並不認為他優於 hayward，而當時在 deron 打出身價後，ak 定位也退居下來。我們都知道 ak 的特別之處，但他會是 pick & roll 中成功的 handler 或者 rollman 嗎，我無法同意；至於 hayward，就算本季加盟了 exum，他仍會是球隊裡最好的 pick & roll ball handler

以身為球隊看板人物而言，如果覺得當年該簽 ak，今年給 hayward 機會自然也是沒問題的

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btw，hayward 的 finish ability 在本季相較前幾季已有進步，上罰球線次數從比賽上可以觀察到越來越多（我知道 numbers..），而簽了這份約之後，hayward 上罰球線的次數也許將會更多

我不是一個喜歡看數據的球迷，but slcdunk 有幾位 blogger 是，他們可以舉出很多 hayward 在場上時，teammates are better 的例子，甚至其他更多 hayward 在數據表現上值得這份合約的原因，但我不是專家，我也不喜歡這套數據模式，im sorry，如果各位喜歡的話，不妨上那邊看看

leader 不只代表球員能為球隊貢獻多少分數，很顯然爵士看的層面更多。看來很多人不喜歡聽教練影響的問題，認為球員自身因素較大。說實在話，這三個多球季下來，screw 所有爵士 staff/ organization/ players 的正是 ty corbin 跟他的 coaching staff。這邊如果真的意見跟觀點完全不同，那就算了吧

 

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GO JAZZ!!!

從騎士的 meeting 開始，我在網路上看了很多文章，討論，訪問甚至是 podcast 跟 video

除了鹽湖城那邊，絕大多數的球迷幾乎都認為給 hayward 這份合約是「錯的」

其實理由跟這幾頁討論都差不多

很顯然的，鹽湖城不得人緣的不只是比賽跟新聞

就連在地球迷針對這些問題一一回應的文章，卻幾乎沒有多少來自外地球迷的 comment 或 argument

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沒想過有這天，不過 ty corbin 的名言這次可以拿出來用了 XD

it is what it is!　雖然很無奈，但這也是事實..

 

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GO JAZZ!!!

Zach Lowe 的文章一向是最好的:

Back to Utah: The Jazz should have at least thought about engaging in sign-and-trade talks before Hayward signaled his intent to sign his offer sheet and (probably) erased that possibility. Utah talked with Cleveland about tossing two of its young core guys, plus the no. 5 pick, to the Cavs for no. 1 pick, and that was a damn progressive internal discussion. It represented the recognition that Utah’s beloved core five (pre–Dante Exum) might not contain a single franchise star, and that flipping two solid young guys for the chance at drafting such a star at no. 1 is worth it. It was a sign Utah had a realistic understanding of its own players, and a willingness to take a step back in the rebuild — even if the move might displease some fans.

But Hayward doesn’t appear to have been in those talks, and the Jazz like him a lot. They should; he probably has the best long-term potential of all of their young guys, maybe minus Exum. But the Jazz could have pushed to see if Charlotte liked Hayward enough to surrender a bundle of goodies — MKG, Noah Vonleh, and a future pick. It was worth kicking the tires, and Hayward isn’t quite good enough to preempt that discussion.

The Jazz will probably just bite the bullet, and that’s fine. They’ll still have about $11 million in cap room to butt their way into trade talks, and they’ve been aggressive about paying for picks. They took nearly $25 million in dead money last summer in exchange for two Golden State first-rounders (and two second-rounders), and they absorbed the $7 million due Steve Novak for a single second-rounder from the Raptors last week.

And the Jazz are young enough that they could overpay every young guy on the roster and still retain significant cap room every summer going forward.

But that’s dangerous, especially when it comes to Burks and Kanter. It’s unclear if either projects as a long-term NBA starter, and the prognosis is probably negative for now. Overpay too much just for the sake of keeping them as tradable pieces and that cap room shrinks into single digits, below the range at which you can really play ball.

The Jazz still have some work to do, and they know it. The Hornets will, too, once Utah matches, but they’re at least gambling on the kind of young player with upside a team in mid-rebuild should want. Good for them.

來源: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/gordon-hayward-free-agency-and-the-nbas-middle-class/

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Bjork本人就是音樂!

還有:

Jazz will match Gordon Hayward's $63M sheet, but wouldn't be a surprise to see them take full 3 days to notify Hornets, sources tell Yahoo.
Adrian Wojnarowski (@WojYahooNBA) July 10, 2014

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Bjork本人就是音樂!

Kawakami Rinitsu:

還有:

Jazz will match Gordon Hayward's $63M sheet, but wouldn't be a surprise to see them take full 3 days to notify Hornets, sources tell Yahoo.
Adrian Wojnarowski (@WojYahooNBA) July 10, 2014

由於這個原因，有人不斷接到 source 說爵士不會跟價，beat writer jody 不斷滅火..

 

david locke 寫了非常完整的解釋：

WHEN WILL THE JAZZ MATCH THE CONTRACT?

The Jazz will wait the entire 72 hours before matching the contract for two reasons. First, the Jazz aren’t going to do the Hornets any favors by releasing their obligation to this money by matching it early. Secondly, the Jazz will have an extra $6 million they can spend in those 72 hours. Gordon Hayward’s current cap hold is about $8 million. Once the Jazz match, he will take up $14.7 millionoff the cap. Therefore, during those 72 hours, the Jazz could sign a player with that $6 million. After signing, Hayward the Jazz will still have about $8 million (and as much as $11 million) in cap space.

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加映

WHY DIDN’T THE JAZZ GET A DEAL DONE BEFORE THIS OFFER SHEET?

A little bit because the Hayward camp wanted to get a max offer and that was their goal. It was important for them that Hayward was regarded as a max player. The Jazz opened up this portion of the negotiations with an effort to get a deal done, but the Hayward camp wanted to see what the market would deliver. Good on them. In the first portion of the negotiation (prior to the start of last season) the Jazz may look back and wish they had offered more and given more to get a deal done rather than paying the max contract now.

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GO JAZZ!!!

Jazz.Q:

實際上有沒有辦法做到 pete 的貢獻或者能不能比上 pete 很重要嗎，我想這邊的重點是這兩人同樣繳出 15/5/5 這數據門檻，命中率的問題跟這個門檻相比，到底哪個重要，本季又有多少球員達此門檻。對我而言，相較於命中率的問題，我想這門檻應該更重要才是

btw，hayward 的 finish ability 在本季相較前幾季已有進步，上罰球線次數從比賽上可以觀察到越來越多（我知道 numbers..），而簽了這份約之後，hayward 上罰球線的次數也許將會更多

15/5/5不稀奇，前幾年有個菜鳥叫Rodrigue Beaubois，他在新秀賽季就進入170俱樂部(50 FG%，40 3P%，80 FT%)，能在新秀賽季拿到170的NBA史上不超過5個，如果把上場時間和3PM也算進去，他是史上第一人，夠嗆了吧，現在他人在哪?

或者說先前提到的Parsons，去年季後賽成為史上第6個24歲年齡砍下27分10板8助的球員，其他5個是誰?LBJ，巴爵士，Rondo，I.Thomas和 B.Davis。

Hayward目前為止展現出來的天份真的有這麼罕見嗎?

在爵士這樣百廢待舉的球隊，first option的數據達到15/5/5的門檻，坦白說，我並不覺得有這麼珍貴，何況這是低%高TO換來的，含金度不夠。

至於Hayward是否有領袖資質，這我持保留態度，在NBA要當領袖，有沒有這個能力才是第一考量，舉例來說，有個同事老想當老大，卻沒甚麼本事，有人會服他嗎? 

另外，Per 48 mins來看，Hayward上罰球線的次數沒有比上季多，甚至少了0.2次，所以我說印象是不可靠的，% at rim是否有進步我就不查了，反正你不喜歡看數據，我也就不用花時間了。

其實前面的achilles大就已經說到重點了

「某球員的能力值多少身價」和「某球隊該花多少錢簽下該球員」基本上是兩個不同層次的問題。

尤其是發生在爵士這種小市場球隊上

我是忠實的爵士隊球迷 我也覺得四年6300萬簽貴了

以我個人來說 我覺得Hayward最多就是平均年薪1200萬 再多就是貴了

以球迷的角度是如此 但站在爵士隊高層的立場 你留不留?

這是現實層面的問題 不是數據上論斤秤兩的問題

說實話 爵士就算開年薪3000萬 雷霸龍跟Melo也不會想來鹽湖城

即使是一般的A咖 在這個"揪團拿冠軍"的年代 也不會有人想來鹽湖城組X巨頭

這就是現實

四年6300萬 以爵士隊高層的立場 不是100%滿意 但也必須接受 

一來爵士的薪資空間確實還ok (只是留下Kanter的難度提高?)

二來 現階段 爵士也只能把Hayward當一哥看待 (爵士要從自由市場挖到A咖真的很難)

三 爵士也必須做給別人看 表示球隊願意砸大錢留人才

不然以現在的趨勢 爵士可能只能成為其他球隊的農場 幫忙培養人才用

萬一四年下來 Hayward成長不如預期 就當投資失敗 分手說再見

然後祈禱Exum是將才 到時候卯起來留住他 爵士能做的就是這樣

馬刺一樣是小市場球隊 但他們有Coach Pop 有五次冠軍經驗 爵士有什麼?

除非遇到Stockton這種怪咖 (擺明不轉隊 薪水也拿友情價) 

不然爵士要留人 就是得這樣留

The Jazz have officially matched Charlotte's four-year, $63 million offer sheet for Gordon Hayward.
(Adrian Wojnarowski)
==
爵士跟了, 當然的結果

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Red Jazz:

The Jazz have officially matched Charlotte's four-year, $63 million offer sheet for Gordon Hayward.

討論倒是可以告一段落了，也許年底或者明年賽季結束後可以再回頭過來看看

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jody 指出黃蜂幾乎拿出了所有法寶，連那些 starcraft 都派上用場

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昨晚看到的消息說 hayward 夫妻被拍到在 the grand america 準備 check in

相較去年 favors 在確定自己成為球隊核心之後，連延約都還沒談好就直接買了房子說不想再搬家

不曉得以省錢跟小氣出名的 hawyard 是否願意在鹽湖城買房長住

deron 不曉得房子賣了沒；聽說 korver 的還在；ak 上個月才帶妻小回鹽湖城，說考慮當永久住所

btw，聽說 deron 人現在也在鹽湖城，不知跟 hayward 是要巧遇還是和解了

 

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GO JAZZ!!!

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/jazz-match-charlotte-offer-gordon-154806770--nba.html

Gordon Hayward is staying in Utah after all.

The Jazz on Saturday matched Charlotte's four-year, $63 million offer for the restricted free agent. His agent, Mark Bartelstein, confirmed Utah's move first reported by Yahoo! Sports.

''I think it's certainly a gigantic statement of how the Jazz value Gordon,'' Bartelstein told The Associated Press.

The Jazz had until late Sunday to match the Hornets' maximum offer sheet for the 6-foot-8 small forward. The team did not immediately respond to a request for comment, but Jazz general manager Gordon Lindsey had repeatedly said he wanted to keep Hayward on the roster.

Hayward averaged career highs of 16.2 points, 5.2 assists, 5.1 rebounds and 1.4 steals last season while leading the Jazz in scoring and minutes. He was the first Jazz player to average 16 points, five rebounds and five assists since Pete Maravich.

He had seven games with double-digit rebounds and six with double-digit assists. He scored more than 20 points in 22 games.

The Jazz, who couldn't reach an agreement on an extension with Hayward last fall, extended a qualifying offer on June 26, making him a restricted free agent. Hayward also saw interest from the Cleveland Cavaliers before Charlotte's offer came Thursday.

Hornets coach Steve Clifford praised Hayward's ''size, skill, competitiveness'' and said he could play small forward or shooting guard.

''He's 24 years old and he has the talent, the character and the work ethic to be an All-Star player,'' Clifford said.

Hayward played his first three seasons in the league with center Al Jefferson, who became the focal point of Charlotte's offense last year and earned third-team all-NBA honors.

The ninth overall pick in the 2010 draft, Hayward has played all four seasons in Utah. He has scored in double figures 63 times with nine double-doubles while averaging 12 points, 3.4 rebounds and 3.1 assists.

The young Jazz struggled last season, going 25-57. In the aftermath, coach Tyrone Corbin was let go after three-plus seasons in Utah and the Jazz hired Atlanta Hawks assistant coach Quin Snyder.

Under Snyder, Utah is rebuilding around Hayward, Trey Burke, Derrick Favors and Enes Kanter. Last month, the team added promising Australian guard Dante Exum and former Duke forward Rodney Hood in the NBA draft.

 

 

 

Jazz.Q:

Red Jazz:

The Jazz have officially matched Charlotte's four-year, $63 million offer sheet for Gordon Hayward.

討論倒是可以告一段落了，也許年底或者明年賽季結束後可以再回頭過來看看

-

jody 指出黃蜂幾乎拿出了所有法寶，連那些 starcraft 都派上用場

-

昨晚看到的消息說 hayward 夫妻被拍到在 the grand america 準備 check in

相較去年 favors 在確定自己成為球隊核心之後，連延約都還沒談好就直接買了房子說不想再搬家

不曉得以省錢跟小氣出名的 hawyard 是否願意在鹽湖城買房長住

deron 不曉得房子賣了沒；聽說 korver 的還在；ak 上個月才帶妻小回鹽湖城，說考慮當永久住所

btw，聽說 deron 人現在也在鹽湖城，不知跟 hayward 是要巧遇還是和解了

 

和解？？可以請Jazz大分享一下曾發生什麼事嗎?

感恩。 

deron williams 在鹽湖城的最後一年把聲譽全搞壞了

球隊歷經重組，禁區換得很徹底（boozer 見錢眼開，memo 傷還沒好），coach sloan 因此砍掉擋拆戰術換了套別的，但球員遲遲無法融入新戰術，其中 al jefferson 的打法跟 deron 完全配不上來，當時 sloan 仍把攻擊重心擺在 deron 身上，很多場比賽是任由他拿著球到處砍，al 因為速度慢無法配合的關係，時常在末節或關鍵時間被 sloan 冰在板凳上，雖說 deron 處理球的次數變更多，但因為手腕有傷，加上戰術無法發揮，球幾乎是零流動，命中率跟前幾季相比幾乎可用慘不忍睹來形容。漸漸的，deron 開始忍不住了，經常「拎北不爽」四個字就掛在臉上，後來更加劇到只要輸球，賽後一定向媒體發洩，再後來發生什麼事，我想大家應該都知道

前一年球隊為了省錢送走 ronnie brewer 就已經搞得 deron 不太爽了，今年高層又選了 hayward 來取代 kyle korver，惹到身為 korver 好麻吉的 deron 頗有微詞，而且那年的爵士仍被外界看好能晉級季後賽，就算不看 koc 在夏天做了那幾筆成功交易，至少也得給 sloan 面子，爵士在開季時確實是以西冠為目標，球迷也一致都這樣想，加上 deron 更表示他沒時間慢慢等，因此球隊根本就無暇培養 hayward。沒想到事情發生的很快，雖說有大票球迷包括我本人在選秀時都噓爆 hayward，但他總歸是自己人..

記得才剛開季不久，deron 在某次進攻時對 gordon hayward 大喊「跑」，示意要他跑位，但 hayward 認為左邊已經都是人，所以他繼續待在右邊，這下搞得 deron 非常不爽，他直接大力把球砸向 hayward，意思就是「你很行是不是？你打給我看」，結果 hayward 傳給 sap 做兩人配合，漂亮的完成上籃。這下更弄得 deron 整肚子火，場邊叫了暫停之後 deron 還沒走回板凳區就開始飆 hayward，非常大聲，搞到整個板凳區氣氛僵硬，這場球 hayward 他爸媽還特地到鹽湖城替兒子加油，大老遠跑來卻目睹兒子不僅進球要被罵然後還沒人幫手，sloan 甚至連一句話都沒說，後來還在賽後表示不插手這類事情，十足給了 deron 面子

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deron 的形象在鹽湖城已經被妖魔化，每次作客回鹽湖城都會有一票球迷噓他，前一季某次比賽，deron 在快攻中被 hayward 賞了個鍋子，全場球迷拍手大聲叫好。可以說這兩人沒什麼好恩仇可言，爵士迷也很感激 deron 幾年來的貢獻，但每每提到 deron 就是必婊一下 XD

 

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GO JAZZ!!!

Hayward不只寫推特, 還有部落格

今天寫的 Back Where I Began 完整講到他對鹽湖城-爵士的看法, 是篇大作

開頭就講到重點:

I’m really happy that the Jazz believed in me, and were able to match the offer. It really means a lot to me because they didn’t have to do that, but they chose to.

就像這邊討論的一樣, 爵士可以選擇相信他, 去match這筆可能是overpaid的薪水, 也可以選擇不信

但爵士選擇相信

剩下是他得把球打得更好, 為這裡創造新的傳說...我是覺得會寫這麼一大篇漂亮文章的人(頭腦不錯)該續約啦

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